OPINION: On the Censorship of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE

Wednesday, August 10th, 2016

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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this article are those of the author and do not reflect those of oprainfall as a whole.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE | Tsubasa Swimsuit

Anyone who has been paying any attention at all to our coverage of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE will probably be familiar with the controversy surrounding the game with the censorship of costumes and images within it. I’ve mostly tried to stay away from the negativity of the issue, but with my review of it coming out the same time as this piece, I feel like I should get my thoughts on it out there. So, here goes nothing.

If I were to sum up my feelings on the censorship issue in a single word, that word would be “confused.” What did Nintendo of America hope to achieve here? Why did they change some things, but not others? Why did they change anything when there’s so much more that can be found on their own platforms? Any claims I make here are speculation only, based only on my own somewhat limited investigation.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE | Censored Dungeon

As far as I know, the censorship includes altered images in Illusory Shibuya (the third Idolasphere in the game), three altered costumes for Tsubasa Oribe, one altered costume for Kiria Kurono, and the swimsuit/hot spring DLC set which was not released at all in the West. Some changes were also made to in-game videos to make things overall less risqué.

The changes to the Shibuya Idolasphere are by far the most dramatic changes made to the game, in some ways heavily altering the tone of a dungeon based around a gravure photographer possessed by a Mirage. In the Japanese release, the walls of the dungeon are adorned with photos of swimsuit-clad women, while the western release has them in more modest, less revealing outfits. At the end of the dungeon, in the Japanese version, Tsubasa strips down to a bikini to lure out the possessed photographer, while in the localized version she just changes into another outfit.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE | Tsubasa outfit comparison

Image credit to PersonaCentral

Interesting to note, the bikini she wears in the dungeon is the same one she’s later seen wearing in one of her side stories during an in-game commercial and an ad-lib attack she acquires afterwards, even in the Western version. The only real difference is that she will only be wearing it during these sequences, and it’s not an equippable costume for her. It wasn’t removed, it was only delegated to a couple sequences that you won’t see as much.

The biggest question is why Nintendo decided it would be appropriate to make these changes in a game rated Teen by the ESRB when there are several other games also rated T on Nintendo consoles with much more revealing outfits than anything in Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE. Two Senran Kagura games are available on Nintendo 3DS, and, while Deep Crimson was rated M, Burst was rated T. And (to the extent of my knowledge) it was unchanged from the Japanese version. Not only that, but Stella Glow is also available on 3DS, and…well, take a look at Nonoka’s regular outfit. Keep in mind, she looks like this throughout the entire game. Keep in mind also, this is a T-rated 3DS game.

Stella Glow | Nonoka Art

You might argue that neither of these games were published by Nintendo, and you’d be absolutely correct. Senran Kagura is published in the West by Marvelous and XSEED, while Stella Glow was published by Atlus. So, let’s take a look at what Nintendo has published themselves recently, specifically Bayonetta 2 and Devil’s Third. Both are much racier than anything in either version of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE, and were still released unchanged on the Wii U. It’s true that both were rated M, but the fact remains that they were unchanged. Nintendo could easily have left Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE alone, and skated by with an M rating at the very most, and probably could even have kept it at T. The changes didn’t need to be made, and especially the changes to the third dungeon don’t even make sense in the context of the game and its setting.

More Questions on Page 2 ->

About Chris Melchin

Chris is a computer science student who has been gaming ever since he knew what to do with a Super Nintendo controller. Since then, he's owned every Nintendo console to be released. His favourite games include Xenoblade Chronicles, Persona 4 Golden, and Little Busters. He started watching anime in high school, and his favourite series is Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. He also writes Vocaloid music for his personal YouTube channel, and has a (slight) obsession with Megurine Luka.


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  • Heriel

    What did NoA hope to achieve? To sell more, and it did…

    That’s all there is to it, sales. All changes are made in order to sell more. Kids forget that videogames are products not art (which is why this “muh artistic view” argument doesn’t hold).

    The censored version sold more than the uncensored, so it was a wise decision.

    Also as a note, gravure does not necessarily needs to have an aggressive sexual appeal, there are all kinds of gravure, not only bikinis, profesional idols do casual clothes gravure too.

    I think you guys are mistaking those softporn videos you see on xvideos, there is a real difference between those… things and profesional idols, and what kind of agency is fortuna? what kind of photographer is honorizawa? Both are big in the game’s business after all.

    And no, this is nothing like senran kagura or bayonetta, I don’t even know how to respond that. This is a musical rpg, not an ecchi rpg. It’s selling point isn’t affected by the changes, those changes actually improved it’s appeal. You know what would have hurt the game? Dubbing the songs.

    • Vanadise

      Considering that the uncensored version isn’t available in English, how can you possibly claim that the censored version sold more than the uncensored one would have?

    • Dgnfly

      Most likely the uncensored version would have sold more considering a lot of ppl stopped buying nintendo consoles cause they pander to SJW/Feminists and the casuals and we all know they barely buy games or else WiiU sales would be number 1 not dead last.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      You’re talking about two different things: the number of consoles sold, and the number of copies this game sold/would have sold. Even if this game had come out completely unchanged, it would not have created a surge in Wii U system sales. Most people who were going to buy it, changed or not, already had a Wii U. The question is whether more copies would have been sold if the game was left unchanged, and that’s impossible to answer for certain. I think it probably would have sold a bit more if Nintendo hadn’t changed anything. Even so, the numbers wouldn’t have changed much. This is a niche game, and was never destined for big sales numbers.

      Also, your suggestion that Nintendo’s “censorship” in recent games has anything to do with Wii U system sales is pretty ridiculous. The first Wii U game to see changes was released less than a year ago, and the Wii U was suffering low sales long before that. What decides how many systems sell is not the niche games, but the big, mainstream titles (along with various other factors, of course).

    • Dgnfly

      I would have bought a nintedo console if they diden’t do the lame SJW pandering so that 1 less and ther are more then enough on the net that feel the same. Also its not about a temporary boost its about something for the long run and hardcore gamers aren’t gonna go for a console that panders to a group of ppl that constantly preaches hate towards them.
      Also Niche games sell more under hardcore gamers then casuals and more hardcore are on Sony console right now considering its n1 console right now.

      Like i said the low sales is because of the pandering to casuals and not to mention the cheap ass console specs and totally bad online gameplay. But Psvita is a handheld for niche games and it sold more handheld then WiiU did consoles so it shows that WiiU shit sales is impacted by pandering.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I’m sure there are a fair number of people with that mindset, but unless they number in the millions (and if they did, niche games would sell better), they wouldn’t make much of a difference to total system sales.

      While most niche gamers are in the “hardcore” group, most “hardcore” gamers are not niche gamers. They’re more interested in games like CoD, GTA, Fallout, and Uncharted, which is why those games are all among the PS4’s best sellers. It’s those games that help the PS4 (along with great marketing, image, etc), not niche games like Disgaea 5, which has sold worse than any of the first 4 Disgaea games.

      There’s a gaping hole in your comparison to the Vita: in America, where most of Nintendo’s changes (what you call pandering) took place, the Wii U outsold the Vita by more than double. It was in Japan, where there were no changes to Nintendo’s games, that the Vita outsold the Wii U the most. In Japan, the Vita has also sold more than the PS4.

    • Melody

      Actually, what you are describing is a long standing issue for Nintendo. Dgnfly mentioned a reason why people stopped buying Nintendo consoles. If Nintendo didn’t butcher their games, more people would buy them, although it would really help if they solved their other issues as well. A lot of gamers though will buy consoles for niche titles. Most of the people who own a Vita do so for the niche games that are on the system. When the trailers came out, many did have the intention to buy a Wii U, but when the game was stated to be censored, these people backed off of that intention or at least delayed their plan to get one.

      And like I said, it’s a longstanding issue. Nintendo has time and again done things that broke gamers trust, especially in regards to censorship. It won’t change overnight, but Nintendo is not even trying to change that image. They are constantly playing two-face, pretending that the other half doesn’t exist.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      By “longstanding” do you mean pre-3DS? I only became aware of it when I saw that some DLC in Fire Emblem Awakening had bikinis covered up.

      As I mentioned in another comment to Dgnfly, the Vita has sold less than half the number of systems the Wii U has in America, and the majority of its sales came in it’s first 2 years, before it was a niche-only system. Since then, it has had less than a million sales, and that’s with the PS4 coming out (since some people bought it for PS4 streaming). My point is that, while there are some sales to be had in the niche market, there simply aren’t very many. The sales of a dozen niche titles often don’t match the sales of one mainstream game. So while leaving games like Xenoblade Chronicles X and Tokyo Mirage Sessions unchanged probably would have given them a boost, because the potential sales numbers are so small, it wouldn’t amount to much. Even doubling their sales wouldn’t get either to a million in America (it wouldn’t even get TMS to 200k).

    • Steve Baltimore

      Had they not needlessly censored they may have gotten 200k, but if your marketing to the “hardcore niche group” censorship is not the way to go. In fact I won’t buy another Nintendo console because of this. Why would a buy a console I can’t get a title on that they haven’t butchered? I’ve come to terms with I’m not their targeted customer anymore and that is fine there are plenty of other niche games out there to play.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      My point was that even 200k isn’t much, and TMS didn’t hit half that. I think its sales would be higher if it was unchanged, but personally, I don’t think half the people who wanted it abstained from buying it because of the changes. I don’t think its sales would have doubled.

      If you’re mostly interested in niche games, Nintendo’s home consoles probably aren’t a good choice for you, honestly. The WiI U has gotten very few niche titles all generation, “butchered” or otherwise. You’d probably be best served by handheld systems, which are preferred in Japan, and so get more Japanese games. If the NX ends up being a handheld/console hybrid, will you be getting it? If it’s anything like the 3DS, it will get quite a few niche games, from 3rd parties as well as Nintendo.

    • Steve Baltimore

      I may if the third parties give it great support, but if it is left up to NOA to publish titles on it probably not.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      As a Nintendo handheld (assuming that’s what it is), it will probably do great in Japan, and get a lot of games from Japanese developers. With Sony (seemingly) out of the handheld market, it will be the only game in town, too (pun intended).

    • Josh S.

      Yea easy as it is to yell about Nintendo, I’m far more bummed about Sony pretending the Vita doesn’t exist lately…

    • j0eeyy_p

      I second this. Even PS4 isn’t a good choice due to the dynamics of the Japanese market. If you want niche games, handhelds and PC is the place to be. If you know Japanese, even better.

    • Bryan

      I personally didn’t buy the game because of the censorship. I also decided to stop buying any games associated with NoA from now on. Probably won’t even buy the NX if region lock because we can’t get past the censorship.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      For me, the majority of games I want/get from Nintendo aren’t changed at all, and I don’t find the changes they make to other games, like Xenoblade, significant enough to deter a purchase when I want to play them. I’m hoping the NX isn’t region locked, but I’ll be getting it regardless because I want to play its games. For people who aren’t buying Nintendo’s games, it’s harder to say if the NX will be worthwhile. If it’s a handheld, as rumored, it will probably get many niche games from 3rd parties, just like the 3DS and DS did, so it might still be worth getting.

    • Josh S.

      That’s true, some of my favorite handheld games this gen have been random 3DS games like Stella Glow, 7th Dragon III Code VFD etc. I buy far more random games on my 3DS than my Vita, tbh.

    • Wolfe

      I share these sentiments. Precisely why I no longer do business with Nintendo.

    • Let’s not forget their antiquated obsession with region locking.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Hopefully the NX will be region free.

    • Heriel

      No they wouldn’t

      again, TMS is a japanese game made for the japanese market… AND IT SOLD WORSE THERE, there is something to learn here about that

      not only that but atlus games in general do not sell that much, the sales for this game are on par with the sales for their games, not even during the ps2 era atlus sold that well and that was, well, the ps2. In fact atlus is selling more today and I’m not only talking about persona.

      So while you guys didn’t buy it, others did, and those other were more than you.

    • Wolfe

      So your reasoning is, “You didn’t buy it so they sold more.”
      That is not how you math.

    • PanurgeJr

      Apparently I’ve been away too long. I’ve missed your complete inability to logic. And I needed the laugh that is this insular community screaming the same meaningless platitudes at each other and thinking it represents some sort of truth, not realizing that nobody else is paying attention, let alone gives a fuck.

    • Wolfe

      Hello and goodbye, courtesy of a long overdue block function. Go play shillbot on someone else’s time.

    • PanurgeJr

      IT’S MY TIME I WILL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO LA LA LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU

    • Heriel

      last time I checked 50k was more than 23k, seems like someone else doesn’t know how to count

    • Kiryu

      Your comparison is still nonsense since alot of japanese niche games sell better in the west then japan,those numbers tell nothing.It’s a flop for Nintendo’s expectations overall.

    • Heriel

      it was as “expected” unlike japan where it actually was a flop i think, i don’t know what was NoJ expecting but I think they didn’t expect much in the first place.

      yeah a lot of japanese games sell better on the us, but guess what? they are “censored” as you guys call this… even poor nisa needs to “censor” their softporn games because otherwise it would be prohibited its sales at retail.

    • Kiryu

      Correction NISA censors,that’s why they are hated in the niche community.Idea Factory,XSEED or PQube don’t censor,don’t put them all in the same basket.About the prohibition you are just swallowing the lies of NISA and co.

    • Heriel

      pretty sure IF do the same, otherwise how would you get all your neptunia memes?

    • Kiryu

      They don’t.How i get my Neptunia games?Simple,at retail.

    • Heriel

      I mean memes, ie translation changes, pretty sure the american ones are reaaaally different from the japanese ones

    • Kiryu

      If you mean subs that may be but i never play neptunia games with english dubs.

    • Cats736

      No Neptunia game has been censored. Adding in memes is not censorship, that’s just shitty localization.

    • Heriel

      There is another game out there that they have to change, look at their blog I don’t remember the name of the game since is another kusoge but I do remember they were removing all bondage stuff

    • rergerger

      If Senran Kagura can get away with leaving everything uncensored by merely removing the ages of the girls I’m fairly sure TMS wouldn’t have gotten prohibited for showing 18 year old Tsubasa in a wedding dress or a bikini.
      The “regulations” stuff that Nintendo told us about is bullshit, TMS released in the exact same regions Hyrule Warriors (Rated T) did, but Hyrule Warriors didn’t need to hide Cia’s chest behind a curtain of smoke
      If you want to know why the changes were made you need to ask relevant questions and then see which answers make sense and which are absurd.

    • Wolfe

      Kind of hard to take the actually tally of sales that don’t exist because of this, but please continue pretending the Japanese market is as large as the US market.

    • Heriel

      for this game it should be, but it wasn’t, there is something the japanese guys didn’t like it…

      seeing the premise of the game, I firmly believe that making those changes in jp could helped a lot, I know this because as a fan of idols (real life idols) I had some problems with the game initially, god thanks they fixed it here.

    • Firefox

      You can’t say that more sales in the US is attributed to the changes when US has triple the population of Japan.

    • Heriel

      but not all the population buys games… even worse, not even the really small group who do buys games in the US, buy games like this.

      This is a game that it should have sold FAR MORE for the people it was made for, yet it sold more here…

    • rergerger

      Your comparison is ridiculous, neither version is available in the territories the other is, so what exactly are you hoping to prove by mentioning that the censored one sold more? There’s no logical metric in your comparison, you cannot assume that the game would have sold less in the Americas than it did in Japan if it hadn’t been censored because there is no way of knowing that.
      Moreover, of course the censored version sold more, the Americas is a far larger territory compared to Japan, that doesn’t mean anything, almost every product sells more in the Americas than it does in Japan, and that’s not because people prefer one over the other, it’s because there’s far more people in a whole continent than in an island.
      Let’s say toilet paper is sold twice as much in Mexico than it is in France, are you going to tell me that’s because Mexican TP is more popular? Or are you intelligent enough to know that this happens because Mexico’s population is 122 million while France’s is 66 million?
      Now, if the population of the America’s is 953 million while Japan’s is 127, which territory is bound to have more people interested in buying something?
      Duh.

    • Cats736

      >TMS is a japanese game made for the japanese market…

      That’s literally every game made by the Japanese.

    • Heriel

      yeah, tell that to capcom, nintendo, S-E, konami, etc.

    • Jeremy Barnes

      However, it affects the sales of their next console. Someone like myself who did buy a Wii U for Xenoblade Chronicles X has no intention of purchasing their next console after they have repeatedly done silly things like this censorship and taken such anti-consumer actions. Reggie needs to go from NOA.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      It could, but considering the vast majority of people interested in buying the NX want it for games like Mario, Zelda, and Mario Kart, losing some of the niche market wouldn’t be a huge loss for them. They could make zero JRPG’s and still sell almost as well as if they made several. By definition, the niche market is small, which means it doesn’t have much buying power. The real effect of the niche market leaving Nintendo wouldn’t be hurting Nintendo so much as discouraging them from making niche games.

    • j0eeyy_p
    • Vanadise

      You really don’t see a difference between a fan patch and an official commercial release?

    • j0eeyy_p

      Oh yes there is. The fan patch is basically what should have been the official release. When an official release has a quality deficit between what’s expected by the market and what the market actually gets (from censored games to nothing at all), fans step in to fill the gap. In this case, a fan restoration patch restoring the censored content and retranslating certain lines more faithful to the Japanese release. Anybody who wants to play the true version of the game legally would get the game physically, dump the file then used the fan patch and play as far as I’m concerned.

    • Bryan

      Because of NoA’s actions, I decided to hack my WiiU and pirate the game so I could use the fan patch… So I’m not too sure that was to their benefit. And I’m the type of guy to buy movies/anime/games because I have disposable income. But I won’t be supporting a greedy corporation that doesn’t even understand their own fan base.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      “I hate what Nintendo did, but I want the game. Therefore I have a right to steal it!” That’s basically what I got from your comment.
      There is no excuse for piracy. Buy the game, or don’t. You don’t need it, and you aren’t entitled to it. As j0eeyy_p described, there are legal, or at least legally gray, ways of playing the game with the patch. Instead you used your anger as an excuse to take it, and said it was Nintendo’s fault because they made you angry. Anger, however, does not justify theft anymore than it justifies violence.

    • Bryan

      Take whatever you want away from my comment. I’m simply stating Nintendo made me pirate a game I would have bought simply so I could use the fan restoration patch. And no I don’t need the game. I simply did it to try out the wiiU home brew since I might as well know how to use it for future reference when I buy a used copy of xenoblade or any other censored games. I have a big enough cataloged of games I don’t need to care about buying the games when they come out so I can buy the ones I deem unworthy used.

      Why would I need to try and justify stealing when I spend more than the average consumer by far on games and entertainment to support the industry already.

    • j0eeyy_p

      You don’t need to pirate the game to use the patch, Wii U homebrew has advanced to the point where you can dump the .iso of the physical copy and then play the digital dumped version with the patch. Just buy it used or get it via a trade so that way you’re legally acquiring it, but you are just not paying any money to Nintendo.

    • Bryan

      It’s much easier to simply download the IOS and buy the used game later when you find one for sale. Going through the home brew steps is annoying enough when you aren’t desperate to play the game but just want the uncensored version available to play when you want to.

    • j0eeyy_p

      I agree with this, however it dosen’t make it okay.

    • Bryan

      It does if you end up buying it anyway used or new. If you don’t support the developers in any way than yeah it’s complete pirating. But if you do it simply to make your own user experience more intuitive and still end up buying a copy later than it’s fine.

    • Cats736

      Buying a used game doesn’t support the developers as none of the money you paid goes to them. It’s one of the reasons why GameStop pushes used games so hard, they pocket all of the money and don’t have to pay the developer and publishers a cent.

    • Bryan

      That’s the exact point… I can’t support the “localization” NoA does, and it is Japan’s Nintendo that allows NoA to do what they do. The day the central branch in Japan decides to get rid of NoA and translate everything in house without these “localizations” I will buy them new again.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Nintendo didn’t make you pirate anything. You did that yourself. They just released a game. You said you didn’t want to support the game because of its localization, but you still wanted the game, so you stole it. That’s no longer a protest, nor a boycott, but simple theft. If you don’t want to support Nintendo, but want to play the game, buy it used.

      That logic is completely broken. How does buying some games make stealing others okay? This isn’t a situation in which you “pay your dues” to the industry and are free to take what you want.

    • Bryan

      I’m going to assume you can read and you just didn’t read my comment. I will be buying it used if I want it. I simply downloaded it to try out the home brew features to apply the patch right now. I’m in no way in a rush to play the game or anything anytime soon. Most the games I buy brand new I don’t even play. I simply buy them to support the industry.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      It was my misunderstanding then, and I apologize. In your comment (which I did read) you said you might buy Xenoblade used, and didn’t mention TMS, so I assumed you planned on just keeping the pirated copy and never legally owning the game.

    • Bryan

      There is no used copy of tms yet to buy. And I don’t be playing it anytime within the next few years.

    • Smug

      >buying a butchered game, even used
      >he cant import the original game because of region lock
      >has to crack the console which is already a breach to the user contract

      nintendofag pls

    • TrueWiiMaster

      There’s a problem with your premise: nobody has to do any of that. If you want to boycott the game, don’t get it. If you want to boycott the company, but want the game, buy it used, even hack your system and use the patch if you want. If you refuse to buy the game in any form, just don’t get the game, and life goes on. You don’t need it. Only through a twisted sense of entitlement can one justify piracy, and then only to themselves.

    • Smug

      Modifying products is still a breach of the user contract (in the same title of piracy), if you still plan on being a huge moralfaggot

      >le entitled meme
      man you’re sure pleasing your jew overlords

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Modifying a product you own is not the same as downloading something you don’t. There is no moral equivalency.

      What does this have to do with Jews? And how is this a meme too? Do you just call anything you’ve heard before a meme?

      Obviously anyone who thinks they should get something for free because they don’t want to pay for it has an entitled mindset. Because they don’t actually have any such entitlement, I’d call it twisted.

    • Jesse

      I’ve looked through a lot of your comments on here and elsewhere, like Niche Gamer, and you are really awful, since I’ve racist, ableist and homophobic comments, and how they haven’t gotten removed or you blocked is beyond me. Grow up.

    • Smug

      You’re the one who need to grow up if you’re still dictated by your feelings and liberal “tolerance” crap brainwashing

      Oh wait, you sure like to say “grow up” a lot, faggot

    • j0eeyy_p

      I can relate to Bryan’s frustration as I was considering pirating the game myself, but decided against it in the end. I have plenty of other RPGs to play, and I’ll pick this game up discounted at some point and patch it then. As you say, I will have legal standing by that point.

    • Smug

      >le piracy is theft meme

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I don’t think that’s a meme…

      Piracy is just copying and sharing files, and stealing a car is just driving a car. We’ve now established that some crimes involve actions that are usually legal.

    • Smug

      It is a meme

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Aren’t memes supposed to be funny?

    • Smug

      It is funny because of retards like you and your lack of understanding words

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I think it’s funny that you said exactly what I expected you to. And honestly, I’d be more proud that I don’t have a strong understanding of memes than ashamed. I know what memes are, even if I don’t know many memes, and I still don’t think what I said was a meme.

    • Firion Hope

      I’ll add a note to that that players should import a JP copy instead, that way the money doesn’t go to NOA

    • Bryan

      You are literally telling people to buy a Japanese region locked wiiU to play Japanese games they may not be able to read.

    • Firion Hope

      No I’m saying download the game online so you can play the uncensored version, and import a copy so you get to support the developers.

    • j0eeyy_p

      That can work, but bare in mind you cannot patch a dump of the Japanese copy, the patch only works on the English version.

      I personally intend to buy it used at some point, I’d like the localised physical box on my shelf.

    • *slowly pulls out his censorship apologist bingo card*

    • People like you are a cancer to the video games industry.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I think it’s funny how people pull out that chart as a response, as if anything on it is magically invalidated by its presence. He didn’t even use most of the arguments you circled. He just said that gravure modelling is broader than people seem to think, and that since this game was a product to sell, Nintendo was more interested in profits than preserving art. Are those really such repulsive statements?

    • Tristan (Chili1)

      Every single one of those are repulsive statements, yes. Saying that something isn’t art simply because something is a product is disgusting and belittling of those who worked to make it. Belittling to people who poured their hearts and souls into a work to try and make it the way they wanted it to be and hoping that people would enjoy it.

      Saying that the game was improved by the changes is repulsive in the sense that it does not matter whether or not the changes are improvements. The changes were made by people who did not make the game. It is essentially NoA saying to the creators “We think this is better”, screwing with something they made as if the game is theirs. Sure, they own the rights to publish the game and own the IP, but they weren’t the ones who made it. Its insulting to those who work on games to have their works changed by others attempting to make it better.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I would agree that something can be both art and a product. Art is often a product, because it is sold. I can’t speak for the original commenter, but I interpreted what he said as games are more products than art. The first purpose of games like TMS is to sell, not to share art with others. Likewise, Nintendo’s purpose in paying people to make TMS was to sell it, not spread art throughout the world. Somebody at Nintendo decided it would be better for sales, or perhaps better for Nintendo’s reputation (which affects sales), to change the game. In other words, it was a business decision to make TMS, and likely a business decision to change it.

      Where did he say the changes were improvements? He said he thought the sales improved because of the changes (which I disagree with), and that gravure modelling is broader than many people think. The latter was in response to people saying NoA removed gravure modelling by covering up the girls. He was saying that could still be called gravure modelling.

      Also, because you defend the artist’s original vision so much, I’m curious what you think of something someone had brought up elsewhere. They mentioned that many developers, especially in Japan, actually stray from their artistic visions because of pressures to make the games more marketable, adding more fanservice than they’d like, for example. This goes along with games being a product first, and art second. In such a case, wouldn’t covering up the girls be closer to the creator’s original vision? Note that I’m not saying this is the case here. You’d have to ask the creator to know that.

    • PanurgeJr

      I always find it ironic when people who claim to be free speech hardliners are cowards who keep their comments private.

    • I keep comments private, but I always speak my mind wherever I am.

      What I comment on elsewhere has nothing to do with the actual topic on hand.

      Why would someone want to know where I go and what comments I make despite it having nothing to do with the issue at hand? Then again I guess trying to dig up dirt, slandering, and lynch mobbing people is what you SJWs do best.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      You haven’t responded to me, but based on what you post, I can imagine which group you’d say I fall in. I just wanted to say that the only people I’ve ever seen here digging up dirt are people on your side of the argument (only a few; most remain civil). That’s actually why I locked my comment history, because people arguing with me went searching through months of my comment history, and I thought it was creepy.

    • Both groups on both sides of the argument do it.

      I’ve seen it happen not only on Disqus, but on Twitter, Facebook, etc and other social networking platforms. It’s happens to me all the time.

      You should know that before my Twitter was locked (due to suspicious login activity shortly after I schooled a few feminists), I got death threats daily for having the wrong politics.

      But unlike you, I’m not biased to dishonestly suggest that only one side does it.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Certainly. I wasn’t saying only one side did. I said I have only ever seen people on one side do it here, as in on this website. Maybe your experience is different?

      That’s unfortunate about Twitter, but it doesn’t sound out of the ordinary these days. Conservatives/non-progressives who are too vocal get threatened, and then end up banned/blocked/suspended themselves. That’s partially why I don’t use Twitter (though really, I just don’t like it).

    • Tristan (Chili1)

      “Kids forget that videogames are products not art”

      Do you not think that video games are both? The sistine was a product. The art that exists in it was paid for. Does that make it any less art? Films and all movies fit under the same. And then one must ask, what are art books? What about music? Literature? They’re all things that are sold. All products. How can you dare to call video games anything less than art simply because they are products?

      Also, I think you missed the point in the comparisons to Senran Kagura and Bayonetta. The point was to show that games can get away with more. Furthermore, it does not matter whether or not the changes are improvements or not. NoA took an existing game, a work created by someone other than themselves, and changed it to make what they consider to be improvements. That’s like someone taking something you made, screwing with it, and then saying “We made it better!”. It doesn’t matter if it was made better or worse. NoA are not the people who made the game. It is not theirs to change.

    • Heriel

      you are implying that I’m like all of you guys who believe art is the highest form of appreciation… sorry to break it but no, I believe products are more important than any “art”, even “art” needs to be sold as a product in order to trascend, like music, books, or movies, when they don’t sell they are forgotten not matter how “artistic” they were.

      Also SK and Bayonetta could get away with it because its sexiness is part of their main appeal, nintendo itself wanted bayonetta to be more sexy than what platinum proposed at first. It’s a different case since the selling point is to show the girls body (and I find bayonetta more funny than sexy anyway). Those are counter culture games (like GTA or mortal kombat) and are a different beast than culture games.

      and yeah, they can do the fuck they want with the game BECAUSE THEY PAID IT, have you even worked? that’s what everyone does, that’s why you are being paid, atlus got paid to make this game along with nintendo, and it uses nintendo ip… do i need to say more?

    • BlueLink3

      Games can be art, with some notable examples being ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, and Journey. With that kind of logic, nothing is art. Paintings, poems, music, non of that is art, just products made so people can make money.

    • rergerger

      Japan has a population of 127 million people, NoA’s territory (Comprised of Canada, the US and Mexico) has a combined population of 479 million people; that’s four times as many potential buyers, Genei Ibunroku #FE sold 26,000 units, Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE sold 50,000.
      26,000/127000000= 2.04
      50,000/479000000= 1.04
      So when you actually consider the size of the target market, Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE was fairly less successful than Genei Ibunroku #FE.

  • TrueWiiMaster

    I agree that the recent changes Nintendo’s been making to their games have largely been confusing. Many of them seem meaningless, especially when the games were mostly small niche titles in the first place. Making the changes would not help the games to sell more, and might make them sell less. I tend to think that they’re just afraid of SJW’s attacking them, dragging their family-friendly reputation through the mud on national news. Considering how damaging SJW’s can be, and how much the media, including many gaming companies, cater to them, I can forgive that, as long as the changes don’t truly make the game worse (I’m still of the opinion that changing a costume does not make a game worse).

    • Wolfe

      From the point of view of a cartoonist who purchases games based as much on visual presentation and creative design as gameplay (moreso at times), I disagree with the notion that changing a costume doesn’t lessen the quality of the game.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      And you are certainly free to have that opinion. From my point of view, as someone most interested in gameplay, and then in style, music, and story, costumes are a pretty low priority, especially when it’s just a few costumes affected. I would like to ask, though, what makes the original costumes of better quality to you than the ones replacing them? Is it simply the fact that they’re original?

    • Wolfe

      Very simply put, one was as the artist intended. The other is a crude attempt to repurpose it. In a sense, it’s the same reason I’m not big on PC mods. I want the original vision, not the modified product.

    • Heriel

      I don’t think they care about sjw, people attack them for “catering to them” but they forget cases like tomodachi life or that they fired that prostitute who used to work in the treehouse

      Nintendo is just simple here for the business, politics of any kind have no place on entertainment business, be either gamer politics or sjw politics

    • BlueLink3

      I like your views TrueWiiMaster. I feel like we would get along.

  • Censorship is honestly worse than [REDACTED].

  • Melody

    What’s really weird is that they redubbed a lot of scenes. A lot of cutscenes had completely different dialogue and choreographing done for the western release. That’s not what is weird, what’s weird is that they even changed the lines where the characters speak their ages. The people who would pick up on this are the people who would notice the other changes made. And yet supposedly Nintendo and Atlus took efforts to change it.

    You talked about it, and yeah, they were completely inconsistent about it all. The cd that accompanied the special edition was unchanged. One character specifically called attention to her age, the one from the Japanese release.

    The quality of the localization has been called into question as well. Since it didn’t get redubbed into english, the battle lines were also untranslated, and many have said that they actually gave clues on whether it was safe to attack. The translation is also often incorrect, or written as if it was written for a small child. For instance, changing Otaku to Fanboy as if the target audience wouldn’t know what an otaku is (and I know otaku doesn’t have to be an anime/manga/game otaku, but could be referring to somebody’s vast knowledge of trains or whatever else they know and care a lot about).

    Of course, the quality of Nintendo’s translations have been quite poor lately, often exchanging meaningful dialogue with memes or other inaccuracies. It’s up to fans once again to try to restore what was butchered. They’ve already made progress and from when I last checked they’ve set out on trying to retranslate a lot of the dialogue which seemed to be one of the easier things to do.

    Really, though it just seems like TMS had the bare minimum done to “localize” it. It certainly wasn’t up to par of Atlus’ usual localizations which is why I feel they were made into scapegoats by Nintendo. Nintendo said Atlus was doing the localization, but it was clear that Nintendo had final say on everything so if Nintendo was against something being included, then Nintendo is at fault for removing it. And all of these cuts did was give fans less of a reason to buy the game. As the content is being restored by fans, you can tell that fans interested in buying the game is rising.

    Atlus seemed to put a lot of love into the game, and so these inconsistencies where something is censored sometimes but not all of the time seem more like them trying to get things past the gatekeeper. There’s nothing that was cut that is any worse than something from the persona games or the SMT games in general. Did they miss the part in Persona 4 where one of the dungeons was basically a strip club? Or the boss of said dungeon pretending to be a stripper? Or in Persona 3 where one of the dungeons was a love hotel (and said love hotel making an appearance in P4 as well. Those are just the ones off of the top of my head. And the series in general has a demon/persona that is basically just a penis.

    You could make the argument that those are M rated games while TMS was rated T. I’d argue that what was cut would not have raised the rating to an M, but even if it did, why try to keep a T rating? Atlus has in the past made the conscious decision to not censor something to get a T rating specifically mentioning at times that it would be a disservice to the fans and the series. And yeah I guess a T rated game has a bit more potential to get sales seeing as you don’t get carded. However, TMS was already a niche title, and the niche it drew in has not been happy about the changes. The SMT series in general has had good sales figures either. Consider the popularity of the Persona games 3 and 4 were rated M. Soon Persona 5 will also be released and it’s most likely going to be rated M if it hasn’t already been rated. The SMT games are all rated M as well, except for a few spin offs such as the Devil Children games. Would these games sell better if they were rated T? Most likely no, because the people that like these games are either already old enough to buy them, or are allowed to play them. TMS is really niche, but Nintendo’s efforts to make it a mainstream game with mainstream sales made it even more niche. To be honest I find the defense that they did it for sales no more satisfying and somewhat hypocritical. So many people claim Nintendo is the only company that is not fueled by greed, but they are also the only company that censors even the slightest thing that might hurt their sales. People would generally call that greed. People completely forget about other companies that don’t butcher their games, companies like Marvelous and XSEED (which is a subsidiary of Marvelous). Atlus is not perfect, but they usually don’t censor their games. And as I pointed out, it was completely unnecessary. Niche games can sell well to their target audience, but you have to be sure not to alienate the target audience. Nintendo isn’t very good at that I guess, since they assume that all things must be pushed to the mainstream and censored to be more appealing to the mainstream. The mainstream sees the censored game and is still not appealed to by Nintendo, and many don’t like to be treated like children anyway, so the only people that buy the game are from the original niche target audience that tolerates the censorship. The restoration of content by fans help to draw in more customers, but it’s really a handicap that Nintendo put upon itself. If you ask me, if a game is butchered and the fans are responsible for removing the censorship, shouldn’t they be the ones to get paid. They do this for free while Nintendo charges to get a lesser experience. Ideally, I’d like to pay Atlus since they made the game, but not really Nintendo. Nintendo will get paid when they localize a game without censoring it. I’m not pirating the game though, I’d probably just buy it used.

    People defending this saying everyone just wants fap material are missing the point of a lot of the objections.

  • Linktm

    I didn’t follow this game at all, so much so that when I first popped it in I was surprised to find out it wasn’t a Strategy RPG. That being said, I honestly didn’t notice or feel affected by any of the censorship options. Nothing ever felt confusing or weird or wrong to me.

    Do the changes not make sense once you’re aware of what the original content was? Certainly. But did they detract from my personal experience and enjoyment and understanding of the game? Not at all.

    Note: This isn’t for or against censorship, I’m just simply stating that these changes had little to no noticeable impact on me as a regular player.

    • Fair enough. But what you have said is precisely the kind of attitude that allows NoA to get away with such bullshit censorship practices.

      I know you don’t care. I’m just saying this as someone who values the freedom of artistic expression/creativity and the integrity of art.

    • Firion Hope

      It’s still entirely possible to enjoy the game regardless but sometimes you don’t know what you’re missing unless you compare them. The gravure thing really makes less sense in the english version.

      Look at this example https://i.imgur.com/QkAgHxG.jpg obviously that’s more bad translation than censorship, but if you came across that dialog during normal play you wouldn’t realize you missed character depth. Now imagine that applied across an entire game, it’s possible your impressions of story/characters are completely different than they should be.

  • neptuniafan

    From what I read in the comments sections of the Niche Gamer’s site (I forgotten what the article was), I found out that NOA did those censorship not because of the ESRB ratings or the SJWs or “for the children”.

    It is for money, plain and simple greed. The more they censor stuff the more they were paid, and yes, they don’t care about the game’s core audience. Though it was strange why Nintendo of Japan didn’t questioned their decisions.

    • Kiryu

      I hope Atlus and any other thirds stay away from Nintendo for good.

    • neptuniafan

      Yes, especially Senran Kagura. Isn’t it about time the main series move away from Nintendo?

    • Mr0303

      I would totally buy a remastered version of the 2 main games in the series for either PS4 or Vita.

    • neptuniafan

      Me too, and for the PC too.

    • Kiryu

      Marvelous is thinking about it i think seen as Senran 2 flopped on the 3DS.The main audience is clearly on Playstation consoles.

    • neptuniafan

      That is actually a really good news.

    • PanurgeJr

      The article should be removed.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Seeing as how Nintendo still dominates in Japan (the 3DS has almost twice as many sales there as the PS4, PS Vita, Xbox One, and Wii U combined), I think you can expect Japanese developers to continue to release games on their system(s).

    • Steve Baltimore

      Ironically they have less third party support than Sony even in Japan.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Weird. Could it be because Nintendo’s systems are on their way out? Even Nintendo is barely releasing games for their systems at this point.

    • Heriel

      not so much, the only third party sony has in japan is those niche kusoge makers (furyu, d3, etc.), the only big one i can think is bandai namco and maybe S-E

      nintendo still has the big ones, the fenomena games are still in their systems with things like yokai watch, dragon quest and monster hunter.

    • Steve Baltimore

      There are more third party games released on Sony consoles than Nintendo’s. This is just a fact, Nintendo has some of the more well known franchises, but there are still more third party devs working on Sony platforms.

    • Heriel

      yeah the kusoge makers which make those softporn games that are like a plague and do nothing for the poor vita to sell.

      I know it’s late since sony already abandoned the handheld market, but in the remote case of they making another portable system they need to focus more on the quality of the games, instead of bringing those pc doujin games they need to put the big ones if they want to sell.

    • Steve Baltimore

      Quality of games is subjective tbh, I mean personally I feel Nintendo has peddled the exact same crap for years and there’s no reason to pick any of it, but their fans think otherwise. Which is fine because not all games have to be made with everyone in mind to begin with.

    • Heriel

      if quality it’s subjective then what would stop me from saying et it’s the best game ever?

      I know not every game needs to be made with everyone in mind, but that also applies to you guys, NOT EVERY GAME NEEDS TO BE MADE WITH YOUR TASTES IN MIND, there are more people out there who buy games, not just you.

      I know it makes you feel special to be part of some “comunity” but there is a world outside that comunity, one with far more flesh and blood people than you imagine.

      had the game sold worse with the censorship, then I’d have been with you, but that wasn´t the case. I’m where the money is, for that is what is needed for this industry to grow.

    • Steve Baltimore

      There’s nothing stopping your from saying that if that’s how you feel about a title. I’d be sure I could back that up before I said it. TMS did sell worse with the censorship, how many sells were lost would be hard to tell, but I feel people figuring out how to patch the game probably saved it somewhat.

      Also why censor a game that is targeted at a demographic that is never going to accept that? It’s like shooting yourself in foot before you even start, especially when the edits made no sense to begin with.

      Furthermore if you think gaming needs to grow as whole that will never happen as long as art is being changed on a whim because a few people took issue with something. The only way this industry will grow is through creativity and you cannot have that with censorship.

    • Heriel

      again, the game sold more, how is that shooting in your own foot?

      videogames are work, the real artist in history are because they were masters at their fields, videogames are not exception, only real masters at programing are the real artist, not “creative” crap but those who have the skill to make the impossible possible, if art its creativity, then the sonic team its the most artistic developer out there.

      Those guys are hardworking people who put their lives on the line in this business (making games it’s extremely difficult), calling them artist because of their “creativity” is an insult to their hard work which needs to be repaid, and it’s repaid by the sales not by “critrics” who don’t even buy games.

    • Steve Baltimore

      If your meaning it sold more in North America than Japan it would’ve been sad if it didn’t seeing as there are a lot more WIi U owners here than in Japan.

      Gaming relies on creatively in gameplay and sound design just as much as the artwork itself. It’s when all these things come together that something truly well made is born.

    • Heriel

      but it is also an extremely japanese game, this is not like xenoblade x that was especifically made with the western in mind, this is the polar opposite, in fact this game shouldn’t even exist and it’s really an anomaly to both nintendo and atlus.

      I can say this, even if you don’t like the game, buy it, it’s going to be really special in the future as both as part of story and as a valuable item.

      the game selling “as expected” with only 50k copies means that there is really little supply out there

    • Bryan

      The game didn’t sell more. Unless you think people that want to buy censored games is more than people that won’t buy any censored games and hates censorship.

    • Heriel

      I already answered this above (a lot of times actually)

      But I give you this, you are the first one talking about competition, that’s hard to find.

      It still doesn’t change anything since it still sold more, but you’re the first one who made a real point, congratulations!

    • Bryan

      The point still stands. It would have sold more without these needless censorships.

    • Heriel

      again look at the japanese sales, it’s not like the wii u had more jrpg’s even in japan.

      it lost your sales, but gained the sales of other, for every 1 of you guys who didn’t buy it, 2 different people did

      as a business you can’t have everyone happy

    • Bryan

      Yeah… Erm no you are grasping as straws.
      The amount of WiiU’s sold in Japan compared to outside Japan is the difference between night and day. The fact it still sold so pathetically outside of Japan is sad. 3.21 million WiiU’s in Japan and 9.82 million WiiU’s sold outside of Japan.

    • Heriel

      it still sold more and I don’t see why the number of consoles matter for this game, it’s not like its mario or zelda

      and again this is a japanese game for japanese people, one that for some reason worked better in the us where there is a heavy cultural barrier.

      You say it was because there is more people here, which is true, but now you are implying everyone buys games like these in the us which is obviously not the case

    • Bryan

      You are literally grasping at a flawed logic. People buy games for their console. The WiiU has a big lack of games compared to other consoles. FE# Sessions was literally the only Jrpg. And there are quite a lot of JRPG lovers in the west. Even if you think Japan has more people that love JRPG than Western fans, it still doesn’t make up for the massive difference of 6.6 million people.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Don’t forget Xenoblade and Monster Hunter.

      And without getting too deep into an argument other people are having, I will say that it’s probably more common for JRPG’s to sell better in Japan than for them to sell better in America, despite America having far more consoles sold, and about as many handhelds. TMS barely selling better in America isn’t really “pathetic”, because many, if not most, JRPG’s actually sell less in America than in Japan. Most JRPG’s that do sell more in America do so by a small margin, like TMS.

    • Smug

      Monster Hunter isnt a jrpg

    • TrueWiiMaster

      It’s an RPG made in Japan by a Japanese developer, and played mostly by Japanese players. What makes it not a JRPG?

    • Smug

      >Monster Hunter is a rpg

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Yes, a Japanese RPG, frequently abbreviated to JRPG.

    • Smug

      its a action/hunting game, you fucking plebian

    • TrueWiiMaster

      You just called it an RPG. It’s made in Japan. Therefore, it’s a Japanese RPG.

      And maybe you aren’t aware, but there are action RPG’s.

    • Smug

      >he didnt see the arrow
      >he still call it a rpg solely because it was made in japan

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I saw the arrow. I just thought it was just something you did. I guess it actually has meaning?

      I’m not calling it an RPG because it was made in Japan (RPG’s are made everywhere). I’m calling it an RPG because that’s what I’ve heard it called, and consider it. Googling the question shows that I’m not alone there. Some people say it’s an action game with RPG elements, and others say it’s an action RPG. Capcom also calls it an action RPG.

    • Bryan

      Fire Emblem Fates
      North America: 0.65m 45.2%
      + Europe: 0.18m 12.3%
      + Japan: 0.52m 36.3%
      + Rest of the World: 0.09m 6.2%
      = Global 1.43m

      Bayonetta 2
      North America: 0.56m 55.3%
      + Europe: 0.28m 27.5%
      + Japan: 0.09m 9.4%
      + Rest of the World: 0.08m 7.8%
      = Global 1.01m

      The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
      North America: 0.89m 52.4%
      + Europe: 0.55m 32.2%
      + Japan: 0.14m 8.0%
      + Rest of the World: 0.13m 7.4%
      = Global 1.71m

      Xenoblade Chronicles X
      North America: 0.36m 43.0%
      + Europe: 0.27m 32.7%
      + Japan: 0.14m 17.1%
      + Rest of the World: 0.06m 7.2%
      = Global 0.83m

      What was that about Japan selling more than North America again? In most cases all the games sold over 3 times more than Japan

      Shin Megami Tensei x Fire Emblem
      North America: 0.08m 45.2%
      + Europe: 0.03m 15.1%
      + Japan: 0.06m 33.4%
      + Rest of the World: 0.01m 6.4%
      = Global 0.17m

      And yet here Sessions barely sold more than Japan… not even double the amount.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Those are some odd examples. Fire Emblem and Xenoblade work for your argument, but I don’t see how Bayonetta and Wind Waker are relevant in a conversation about JRPG’s. Zelda’s not even niche. Regardless, those are very cherry-picked cases. Try looking at any Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Suikoden, or Yo-Kai Watch. Try looking at almost any Final Fantasy. Japan outsold America with almost every one of those games, and for home consoles America had at least twice as many systems sold (triple for the PS3). Look at the Disgaea, Shin Megami Tensei, Bravely Default, Neptunia, or Persona games. These are a mix of America passing Japan, and Japan passing America, but the numbers are often very close, like with Tokyo Mirage Sessions. So that’s dozens of examples of JRPG’s selling better than or close to the same as America in Japan. Do you have a similar number of examples, or will you at least concede that JRPG’s selling less, or just slightly more, in America is not unusual?

    • Bryan

      I was simply grabbing a list of games I could think of off the top of my head. But either way more consoles in a region = more potential sales. Trying to argue with that fact is fruitless. The fact that North America barely out sold Japan after all that advertising for the game is considered pathetic.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      That’s technically true, but you also have to consider potential audiences. JRPG’s have a larger audience in Japan, and so even if they have a third of the systems, because the audience is bigger they can still sell more. The American equivalent would be games like CoD, which sell at a much higher rate than they sell in Japan, even considering the difference in consoles (often more than 10x as many copies with 3x the number of consoles).

      I don’t really see how that could be considered pathetic. Like I said, many JRPG’s can’t even match Japanese sales in America, let alone pass them. If selling better in America is pathetic, what do you call selling worse?

    • Bryan

      Erm I don’t think you realized that WiiU is not meant for games like CoD etc.
      The WiiU is meant for Japanese games mostly. Also mostly first party since third party don’t develop for it like PS4 and xBox. And the third parties that do develop for it are mostly Japanese companies, which ANYONE buying a WiiU would realize. So the whole WiiU consumer base is a potential audience for any games released on WiiU. Even if it is just smash bros etc.
      There simply is a bigger audience in North America compared to Japan for the WiiU RPG’s and that’s proven too by the fact that Fire Emblem sells better in North America too which Sessions was suppose to be taking inspiration from. So your argument that there is more Japanese JRPG fans thus their numbers are closer even with such a big discrepancy of WiiU base is just wrong.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I was looking outside the Wii U for most of my sales numbers, because, like you said, it doesn’t have many JRPG’s. It also doesn’t have very many FPS games.

      That’s only half true. The Wii U is definitely best for playing 1st party Nintendo games, but that does NOT mean every Wii U owner is a fan of Japanese games in general, let alone JRPG’s. Most Wii U owners are fans of games like Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong, or other classic Nintendo IP’s, and have little to no interest in JRPG’s. That’s why even Xenoblade Chronicles X only sold to about 6% of the Wii U owners in America, despite being a major release with a fair amount of marketing.

      Fire Emblem is a poor example. First, it’s not on the Wii U, but the 3DS, which has many JRPG’s, and would likely have a bigger JRPG audience for that reason. Fire Emblem sales on the 3DS are not reflective of a Wii U audience. And second, Fire Emblem games always sell better in America. Perhaps Americans like strategy games better (2 or 3 Disgaea games also sold better in America). Regardless, Fire Emblem is not representative of JRPG’s in general, as my list of examples showed.

      And again, console base is largely irrelevant when discussing audience size. Basing expected sales purely on the number of consoles out there assumes audiences are proportional in all regions, which data shows they are not. According to your logic, every home console game that releases in America and Japan should sell significantly more in America, but that’s not the case, especially for JRPG’s. The reality is that many, if not most, JRPG’s sell less, or barely more, in America than in Japan.

    • Bryan

      Once again, you are basing it on assumptions with not even a tiny bit of facts. If I also had nothing to back up my claim then obviously it would simply be words against words. But I constantly give you something that can give information on the customer base for the WiiU for the game.

      1. WiiU numbers in Japan vs outside Japan is simply too big
      2. JRPG’s on WiiU DO include Zelda and Xenoblade, I don’t care if you say Zelda is really recognized in the West, it’s a JRPG that is ON the WiiU. If Western people like you said don’t like JRPG as much as Japanese, even Zelda wouldn’t have made a splash.

      The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
      North America: 0.89m 52.4%
      + Europe: 0.55m 32.2%
      + Japan: 0.14m 8.0%
      + Rest of the World: 0.13m 7.4%
      = Global 1.71m

      The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD
      North America: 0.89m 52.4%
      + Europe: 0.55m 32.2%
      + Japan: 0.14m 8.0%
      + Rest of the World: 0.13m 7.4%
      = Global 1.71m

      And guess what? Xenoblade chronicle literally didn’t have a fan base anything like Zelda. And IS a JRPG.

      Xenoblade Chronicles X
      North America: 0.36m 43.0%
      + Europe: 0.27m 32.7%
      + Japan: 0.14m 17.1%
      + Rest of the World: 0.06m 7.2%

      Once again, these are literally like the only JRPG on the WiiU since you said 3DS does not show the JRPG base on the WiiU, well here are the numbers AGAIN. I did show you already and you keep trying to dismiss information for decision making on this point.

      Shin Megami Tensei x Fire Emblem
      North America: 0.08m 45.2%
      + Europe: 0.03m 15.1%
      + Japan: 0.06m 33.4%
      + Rest of the World: 0.01m 6.4%
      = Global 0.17m

      You are only basing everything off of your assumptions, while I’m backing it up with information that show the player base of the WiiU.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      What are you talking about? I gave you dozens of examples to back up my claims. You gave me Zelda, Xenoblade, and Fire Emblem. You’re the one assuming that there’s a much bigger audience for JRPG’s in America, with absolutely nothing to back it up, and all of the facts against you.

      1. That’s irrelevant unless you can prove the audience is proportional. PS3 numbers in Japan vs outside Japan have an even bigger difference, and some games still sold better in Japan. That’s fact, not opinion. You’re holding up 1 singular non-Zelda JRPG that sold better in America than in Japan by a wider margin than TMS. But that game is Xenoblade, which had years of hype, a famous predecessor, and plenty of Western appeal. TMS was far more niche, and sold within the range such hyper-niche games often do (look at Senran Kagura, Neptunia, etc for example; they often sell less than 100k in America or Japan, despite being on better-selling systems than the Wii U).

      2. If you refer to my previous comment, I also said that Zelda isn’t niche, like the vast majority of JRPG’s are. You’re now holding up one of the most famous franchises in the industry as an example of how niche JRPG’s have more fans in America than in Japan. You even make my case for me. You claim that Zelda’s relatively high sales prove the size of the Wii U audience for JRPG’s in America, but then show that every non-Zelda JRPG on the Wii U has far lower sales. It’s very clear that the audience for Zelda is not a JRPG audience, but a Zelda audience.

      The problem is that such information doesn’t really exist. Not counting TMS (the game in question), and not counting Zelda (for the aforementioned reason), there are 2 other JRPG’s on the Wii U. Monster Hunter (yes, I’m counting it) barely did better in America than in Japan, like TMS. Xenoblade sold much better in America than in Japan. And that’s it. There’s not much to glean from that. That’s why I’ve been using data from across platforms. That information does exist, and it clearly shows that JRPG’s tend to sell as well as or better than America in Japan, despite there being fewer systems.

    • Bryan

      So when I use games not on the WiiU you claim its not related because it is not on the WiiU. But when I only use WiiU games you talk about other games not on the WiiU… There’s really no point in this discussion since you are being a hypocrite.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I think you missed my whole point. What I’ve been saying is that the JRPG audience in general is smaller in America than in Japan. I’ve used sales from various platforms as examples of that. You were arguing that the Wii U in specific had a much larger JRPG audience in America than in Japan. In order to do that, you need to give only examples on the Wii U, which is why I called you out on Fire Emblem. The problem, as I mentioned in my last comment, is that there are really only 3 JRPG’s on the Wii U, not counting Zelda, and that isn’t much to base anything on. Furthermore, only 1 of those 3 sold significantly better in America than in Japan. The other 2 barely sold better than in Japan. This data is, if anything, against your argument, because it shows that despite having double the consoles, the majority of Wii U JRPG’s could not even come near doubling their Japanese sales in America.

    • Bryan

      Oh I get your point completely. “If it doesn’t correspond with my point of view, it’s pointless. If it does than I use it.” That is called a hypocrite especially when you flip flop on what you say constantly.

      ” In order to do that, you need to give only examples on the Wii U”, “The problem, as I mentioned in my last comment, is that there are really only 3 JRPG’s on the Wii U”

      The problem here is I gave you examples on WiiU. Which every release that was in North America + Japan, North America sold more. That alone tells you that North America has a bigger WiiU fan base for these games simply due to the shear difference between the WiiU’s sold outside of Japan vs Japan. You completely ignore that. Sure Japan might have a higher amount of JRPG fans on the WiiU if you look at the ratio of owners to JRPG fans. But due to the amount of WiiU’s outside of Japan, even with a lower percentage of the owners being JRPG fans outside of Japan, that number is still HIGHER than the amount of PEOPLE in Japan that like JRPG and own a WiiU.

      And since you still didn’t get that logic, I showed you JRPG’s that were released on other platforms as long as they both had releases in Japan and North America. However once again you dismiss it saying it’s not on the WiiU, so it’s pointless. Well obviously any fact I give you, you will dismiss it, because it doesn’t prove your point. If you really want to debate something, stop being a hypocrite first.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Show me where I have changed my position. From my first comment here I said that it’s normal for JRPG’s to sell less or barely more in America than in Japan, and that it was therefore not “pathetic” to sell only slightly more.

      I didn’t ignore that at all. Please read my last comment again. I said that all three Wii U JRPG’s sold more in America. Your argument, however, was that JRPG’s should sell a lot more in America than in Japan because there are a lot more systems here, and that TMS was pathetic for selling only slightly more. The evidence does not support that, with 1 Wii U JRPG selling much better, and 2 selling only slightly better.

      You showed me 1 franchise which has always sold better in America, mentioning specifically the 3DS installments. I showed you 10 franchises across at least 8 platforms that sell less, or have games that sell less, in America. And again, if you’re arguing over a general JRPG audience, as I was, you pull from many platforms. If you’re arguing over a JRPG audience on one platform, as you were, you have to pull examples from that platform. You cannot use a PSP game’s sales to reflect a PS3 audience, for example. That is not a hypocritical statement, but common sense. Are we on the same page now?

    • Bryan

      “Don’t forget Xenoblade and Monster Hunter.”
      – Monster hunter not on Wii U

      “Fire Emblem and Xenoblade work for your argument, but I don’t see how Bayonetta and Wind Waker are relevant in a conversation about JRPG’s. Zelda’s not even niche. Regardless, those are very cherry-picked cases. Try looking at any Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Suikoden, or Yo-Kai Watch. Try looking at almost any Final Fantasy. Japan outsold America with almost every one of those games, and for home consoles America had at least twice as many systems sold (triple for the PS3). Look at the Disgaea, Shin Megami Tensei, Bravely Default, Neptunia, or Persona games. These are a mix of America passing Japan, and Japan passing America, but the numbers are often very close, like with Tokyo Mirage Sessions. So that’s dozens of examples of JRPG’s selling better than or close to the same as America in Japan. Do you have a similar number of examples, or will you at least concede that JRPG’s selling less, or just slightly more, in America is not unusual?”

      -Most of those games not on WiiU

      “JRPG’s have a larger audience in Japan, and so even if they have a third of the systems, because the audience is bigger they can still sell more.”

      -They haven’t sold more on the WiiU

      “I was looking outside the Wii U for most of my sales numbers, because, like you said, it doesn’t have many JRPG’s. It also doesn’t have very many FPS games.”

      -So you can look at games outside of the WiiU But I cannot?

      “Fire Emblem is a poor example. First, it’s not on the Wii U, but the 3DS, which has many JRPG’s, and would likely have a bigger JRPG audience for that reason. Fire Emblem sales on the 3DS are not reflective of a Wii U audience. And second, Fire Emblem games always sell better in America. ”

      -So it’s not on the WiiU so ignore it.
      -Fire emblem sales higher in the US? Well better ditch that fact too since it’s not on WiiU and it sold more in NA than Japan. Even though TMS is made by Atlus targeting Fire emblem + TMS fans

      You’re holding up 1 singular non-Zelda JRPG that sold better in America than in Japan by a wider margin than TMS. But that game is Xenoblade, which had years of hype, a famous predecessor, and plenty of Western appeal. TMS was far more niche, and sold within the range such hyper-niche games often do (look at Senran Kagura, Neptunia, etc for example; they often sell less than 100k in America or Japan, despite being on better-selling systems than the Wii U).

      -So a game that had underwhelming previous record on the Wii suddenly has years of hype and plenty of western appeal? You do realize Gundam is still a VERY Japanese thing?
      -And here you are using titles not on the WiiU again to get your point across? Fan service titles at that, not even JRPG similar to TMS.

      “Xenoblade sold much better in America than in Japan. And that’s it. There’s not much to glean from that. That’s why I’ve been using data from across platforms. That information does exist, and it clearly shows that JRPG’s tend to sell as well as or better than America in Japan, despite there being fewer systems.”

      -So the game selling more than Japan is not much to look at because it doesn’t fit your arguement? Thus you are allowed to use Cross-platform games as an example and won’t let me do the same.
      -Erm where does it clearly show JRPG tend to sell more than America?

      “What I’ve been saying is that the JRPG audience in general is smaller in America than in Japan. I’ve used sales from various platforms as examples of that. You were arguing that the Wii U in specific had a much larger JRPG audience in America than in Japan. In order to do that, you need to give only examples on the Wii U, which is why I called you out on Fire Emblem. ”

      -Smaller in percentage sure, but more people than Japan due to the sheer size of the console base.
      -Once again “I can use different platforms but you cannot”
      -And Once I use the WiiU’s examples you simply say…
      “Regardless, those are very cherry-picked cases.”
      “The problem is that such information doesn’t really exist. Not counting TMS (the game in question), and not counting Zelda (for the aforementioned reason), there are 2 other JRPG’s on the Wii U. ”

      So no matter what facts the WiiU presents you dismiss it due to not enough JRPG on WiiU. And the second I present something outside the WiiU like you CONSTANTLY do, you state it can only be WiiU games. Hypocrite much?

    • TrueWiiMaster

      -Monster Hunter is on the Wii U. I was playing it not too long ago.

      -I never claimed they were. As I’ve said numerous times, I was talking about a general JRPG audience.

      -I said “can”, not “always do”. And again, I was talking about the general JRPG audience.

      -If I’m talking about a general audience, and you’re only talking about the Wii U, that’s right.

      -Using a 3DS game’s sales to claim that audience is on the Wii U makes sense to you?
      -TMS does have some Fire Emblem characters in it, but it is not a Fire Emblem game, nor a strategy game.

      -Two things: First, almost 500k for a new JRPG franchise is not underwhelming. It’s great. Very few JRPG’s hit that, especially outside Japan. And second, I don’t know why you assumed I was referring to the mechs when I said “Western appeal”. I was actually referring to XCX’s open world. In case you hadn’t noticed, that’s a big deal in the West these days.
      -Again, I was talking about a general audience. Besides, TMS is more similar to Neptunia than to Xenoblade in both style and gameplay. There’s nothing on the Wii U like TMS except for TMS.

      -You seriously cut my quote to serve your argument better? Did you think I wouldn’t remember? I said Xenoblade sold much better, but Monster Hunter barely sold better. You cannot take from that data the idea that Wii U JRPG’s typically sell much better in America.
      -Please see my dozens of examples. They clearly show that JRPG’s tend to sell better, or only slightly worse, in Japan. If you know of an even larger number of JRPG’s that sold much better in America, please share them.

      -No, it’s a smaller percentage and a smaller number. If there were more JRPG fans in America than in Japan, there would be a clear trend of JRPG’s selling more in America than in Japan, but if you look at most JRPG’s you see the opposite.
      -You obviously cannot use multiple platforms to claim an audience on one platform. If you want to discuss the general JRPG audience, please bring in many other platforms and games to compare with the ones I’ve given.
      -I said that about Fire Emblem, which is one of very few JRPG franchises that consistently sells better in America (and also not a Wii U example). If you want to discuss the general audience, bring up more examples like it, to show that it was not cherry-picked. If there are many, it shouldn’t be a problem.

      It’s not “no matter what facts the WiiU presents”. It’s “these are the Wii U facts. There aren’t many, and they don’t support what you’re saying.” Like I keep saying, Monster Hunter sold more like TMS (barely more), and Xenoblade sold as you say TMS should have (a lot more). The JRPG’s on the Wii U represent both sides equally, and therefore cannot be used to say one case is normal and the other is not (though if you also count TMS, “barely selling more” becomes the more common occurrence).

      Basically, if you want to talk about just the Wii U, there are only 3 games to discuss. If that’s what you want, just say so, and explain how those 3 games back up your argument. If you want to talk about the general JRPG audience, bring in any examples from any system. I’m curious as to how many JRPG’s you can find that sold much better in America.

    • Bryan

      I already gave you the numbers on those “few” jrpgs on WiiU as you claim. And yet you still need me to say more than the facts do? How about you stop struggling with those numbers and just see it as it is. The Western market would buy more JRPGS on the WiiU simply due to the shear size of the western WiiU base compared to the Japanese base. This debate will not get anywhere since you cannot see that as a fact. And once again:

      “No, it’s a smaller percentage and a smaller number. If there were more JRPG fans in America than in Japan, there would be a clear trend of JRPG’s selling more in America than in Japan, but if you look at most JRPG’s you see the opposite.”

      -It’s a smaller percentage of a BIGGER number of owners of the WiiU outside of Japan. Big due to the BIGGER number being bigger, even with a smaller percentage it is more people than the number of JRPG fans in Japan.

      “Please see my dozens of examples. They clearly show that JRPG’s tend to sell better, or only slightly worse, in Japan. If you know of an even larger number of JRPG’s that sold much better in America, please share them”

      -So now you are asking me to share the numbers of what? The other platforms of JRPG that sold better like I did before and you just simply state that it’s not the WiiU?

      “Using a 3DS game’s sales to claim that audience is on the Wii U makes sense to you?”

      -Apparently it makes sense to yourself when you do that.

      “You obviously cannot use multiple platforms to claim an audience on one platform. If you want to discuss the general JRPG audience, please bring in many other platforms and games to compare with the ones I’ve given.”

      -And obviously on the WiiU the Western market for JRPG is bigger than Japan stating from ALL the titles that were released on the WiiU.

      “Like I keep saying, Monster Hunter sold more like TMS (barely more), and Xenoblade sold as you say TMS should have (a lot more). The JRPG’s on the Wii U represent both sides equally, and therefore cannot be used to say one case is normal and the other is not (though if you also count TMS, “barely selling more” becomes the more common occurrence).”

      -From you saying that I pray you yourself understand they ALL sold more outside of Japan than in Japan. What is the conclusion? = THERE IS MORE JRPG FANS ON THE WIIU OUTSIDE OF JAPAN THAN IN JAPAN. MAINLY DUE TO HAVING MORE UNITS OF WIIU OUTSIDE OF JAPAN THAN IN JAPAN. ONCE AGAIN THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS TOPIC. HENCE ONLY SELLING A BIT MORE THAN JAPAN IS QUITE PATHETIC.

      -And yes monster hunter barely sold more, BUT GUESS WHAT? Monster hunter ALWAYS outsold other regions in Japan because Monster hunter is such a big popular game in Japan. The fact that North America outside Japan for the WiiU Monster Hunter proves even more that there is less Japanese jrpg lover on the WiiU than ones outside of Japan. ALMOST every single release of Monster hunter in Japan outside Other regions by 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 or even more. That only serves to prove my statement even more that the WiiU has more JRPG fans outside of JAPAN

    • TrueWiiMaster

      Yes, but as I keep saying, those numbers do not support your argument. The Wii U’s JRPG’s did sell better in America, but your argument was that they sold much better, which is only true of Xenoblade.

      -And again, that’s not right. 1% of 10 million is still lower than 4% of 3 million. If America has 3x the number of consoles, the percentage of console owners that need to buy a game to match Japanese sales needs to be only 1/3rd of Japan’s, but if that number is only 1/5th of Japan’s, Japan will still have the higher sales. And really, arguing over percentages is fairly useless when we can actually see the sales numbers, and what sold more where.

      -Fire Emblem is the only “other platform” franchise you’ve mentioned. I’ve given you dozens of games supporting my argument.

      -I never did that. That was just you.

      -That’s true, but that’s not what you were arguing. You said a JRPG on the Wii U should sell much more in America, not just barely more, like TMS did. Sales data doesn’t support that. If you want to argue that JRPG’s simply sold more on the Wii U in America, there’s no argument. That’s a fact. But your original claim is wrong.

      -I was never arguing that the Wii U JRPG’s sold less in America. They sold more. That’s a fact. They just didn’t all sell much more, as you claimed. Most of them barely passed Japan (counting TMS). In other words, TMS’s sales weren’t pathetic for barely passing Japan’s. They were normal.

      -The only thing that shows is that the JRPG audience on the Wii U is just slightly larger in America than in Japan, which, as I’ve said, is something I was never arguing against. In case you forgot, I’m the one who brought up Monster Hunter, fully knowing its sales numbers. You keep trying to make out your argument as simply “JRPG’s sold more on the Wii U in America!”, but I haven’t been arguing against that, and that argument doesn’t support your original claim.

      Basically, it boils down to this:
      -in general, across all platforms, JRPG’s usually sell more in Japan than in America, and when they do sell better in America, it’s usually by small margins. In this regard, TMS is normal. Deny that if you want, but you’ll need more examples than I gave.
      -on the Wii U specifically, JRPG’s sell better in America, but can sell anywhere from slightly more to significantly more, with “significantly more” being the less common option. In this regard, TMS is also normal.

    • Bryan

      – You don’t know what % it is in North America or Japan. Neither do I. But we do know the install base in North America dwindles that of Japan.

      -You didn’t give me dozens of games supporting your argument. You gave me niche fan service titles on 3ds, and other platform games to try and support your argument. One of the games Monster hunter you spoke of was used against your own argument.

      -All my quotes are from you directly

      -A JRPG SHOULD sell more in North America on the WiiU than in Japan if released in both regions, simply due to the install base of the WiiU in North America compared to Japan. Example = Monster Hunter is such a big game in Japan that out sells any other region 2x 3x or more, yet it sold more outside of Japan on the WiiU. Even with such a big popular game like monster hunters it still didn’t sell more in Japan simply due to the sheer difference in the install base. So when we are talking about TMS that only sold 60k more than Japan globally… That is pretty pathetic. Seeing how monster hunter was able to sell 240k more globally than the amount in Japan even though being such a big title in Japan. And we all know Nintendo had a bunch of advertising for TMS compared to the amount xenoblade or monster hunter had. Not to mention the game also got good reviews and yet still sold so poorly.

      -You were trying to state the JRPG base in Japan was bigger than the one in North America on the WiiU, or that the JRPG base is so small in North America that selling 80k TMS is a good number. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but after the game was promoted so much and had good reviews and being one of the only games released in that time for the WiiU, no. It didn’t sell well.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      -If we know the total number of systems, and the total number of games sold, we can figure out the percentages, but because the numbers we have make the disparity so obvious, that really isn’t necessary. And the Wii U base in America less than doubles the Japanese Wii U base.

      -I gave you many franchises, most of which were not “niche fan service titles”, and most of which included 3 or more games. Monster Hunter, as I already explained, follows what I’ve been saying all along: that it’s normal for JRPG’s to sell less, or barely more, in America.

      -You did use direct quotes from me, but you then claimed my quote about you applied to me. It does not. I never used a 3DS game’s sales to argue there was a Wii U audience. That was you.

      -It’s already been well established that higher system sales do not automatically equal higher game sales for JRPG’s. Most consoles sell better in America, but most JRPG’s sell better in Japan. I know, I know, you’re talking about the Wii U. So on to Monster Hunter.
      -You’re right that Monster Hunter is extremely popular in Japan, of course. It typically outsells America by many times. In fact, that happens to be the case with MH3U as well, but on the 3DS, not the Wii U. This particular Monster Hunter was released on a handheld and home console, and for the handheld version Japan outsold America 4 to 1. In other words, this Monster Hunter sold less on consoles in Japan because most Japanese fans bought it on the 3DS. And even with that, and almost double the Wii U systems, America still barely managed to outdo them on the Wii U.
      -If you’re arguing that it sold significantly less than Monster Hunter and Xenoblade, you’re right. Nobody expected it to sell as many copies as they did. It’s much less famous, and much more niche. That said, for such a niche JRPG, it sold pretty well. It has almost matched Disgaea 5 on the PS4. If you’re going to call that pathetic, realize how many other JRPG’s you’re calling pathetic with it.
      -What are you talking about? I saw multiple commercials for Xenoblade before it came out. I never saw any commercials for TMS. It didn’t have anywhere near the same marketing. It was also ignored for a long time beforehand. For a while people wondered if it was still in development. It didn’t have Xenoblade’s name recognition either, or its hype.

      -I don’t think I ever said that, actually. What I said was that the general JRPG audience in Japan was bigger than in America. I then said the Wii U JRPG audience in America was bigger, but only slightly (hence 2 out of 3 JRPG’s barely selling better here). You claimed it was much larger, but it isn’t. And as I just mentioned, TMS selling 90k (it went up) isn’t as good as Monster Hunter’s 260k, or Xenoblade’s 360k, but no one expected it to hit those numbers. It sold well for a particularly niche JRPG.

    • Bryan

      “NOT EVERY GAME NEEDS TO BE MADE WITH YOUR TASTES IN MIND” well obviously this game wasn’t made with Sjw/think about the children kind of people in mind. So why localize it like they are the main target audience? This game was made with fans of rpg that also like anime characters and Japanese idol culture in mind. And guess what? Japanese rpg and Japanese idol culture tend to have fan service these days.

    • Heriel

      which is why they don’t sell crap i guess, how are those omega quitet sales btw?

    • Bryan

      Changing topic because you cannot comment on your own words “NOT EVERY GAME NEEDS TO BE MADE WITH YOUR TASTES IN MIND”
      Of course not every idol game will have fan service, but guess what? This game had gravure idols as a theme, and that has lots of fan service. If you don’t believe me just Google that term.

    • Heriel

      no, don’t google, go a search girls by their name, look at their photobooks, look at their profiles, look at their other jobs. and learn what gravure is before talking crap

      here, have this example http://idol.gravureprincess.date/2016/04/owada-nana-akb48-gravure-young-jump.html

      this is the gravure a profesional idol does, stop watching porn

    • As a fan of asian women, I’ve never really looked into the gravure stuff before. But it’s something that’s taken my interest. Thanks for the links.

      But despite all the excuses you’re making in this article’s comments section, it doesn’t actually deny the fact that you’re a censorship apologist at the end of the day.

    • Heriel

      you all guys can call me as you want, unfortunately for you that doesn’t change the sales number.

      you lost this one, and you know why? because this game it’s not for you anyway, you don’t even know what the fuck is gravure

      you are all just anime fans who believe to know “japanese culture” just because dumb cartoons.

      Just stick to LL or omega quintet or crap like that

    • I didn’t lose anything, because my point is about you coming up with excuses to justify censorship.

      And you’ve been doing that all throughout this article’s comments section.

      You are a censorship apologist, regardless of whether your excuses are right or wrong.

    • Heriel

      maybe this is why you guys lose, you focus more on namecalling than the actual facts.

      Nintendo do care about the facts (numbers) which is why they do this.

      Maybe if you guys change your tactic of internet tantrums and namecallings to actually changing the facts it would work, but since that requires money well…

      I’m as apologist as you want, and nintendo just made a game for me. Such is life.

    • The only fact here is that you’re a censorship apologist.

      It’s not “namecalling” if it’s a fact.

      And besides, since when has the words “censorship” and “apologist” classed as “namecalling”?

      Because if you genuinely see that as name-calling then you must be quite sensitive.

    • Cats736

      You keep going on about sales number, apparently thinking that because it sold more in the west means the censorship was a good thing or that it somehow means the people against the censorship lost. Pretty stupid.

      The game was something I wanted to play, it was originally for me until it was censored to suit the tastes of others.

      oh, but right. “NOT EVERY GAME NEEDS TO BE MADE WITH YOUR TASTES IN MIND” only works when suits you.

    • Heriel

      then it wasn’t for you, but don’t worry, I already stated some games you can enjoy.

    • Cats736

      Holy shit, your stupid is too much.

    • Heriel

      I’m not the one treating this game as a regular vita game

    • Smug

      “there are more people out there who buy games, not just you.”
      Normalfags and dudebros dont count

      “I’m where the money is, for that is what is needed for this industry to grow.”
      So you’re a jew?

    • j0eeyy_p

      I really wish you could source this with a legit link, I’d be interested in more info.

    • Bryan

      I read that too. Which I believe is partially true as well. They get paid more for every hour they work on the “localization” so why wouldn’t they change everything they could?

  • Mr0303

    I agree with the general points made in this opinion piece. What Nintendo did was utterly confusing and if fan reaction is to be judged bad for business. I doubt the Teen rating improved the sales too much given that most gamers are adults anyway and a rating hardly stopped children from buying COD or GTA.

    There are reasons to believe that these changes were agenda driven if we examine the recent behaviour of the Treehouse staff. If we really want games to be considered art and entertainment for adults there is no place for censorship in them.

    • Kiryu

      Teens don’t care about these type of games,they buy GTA,COD and most of them make fun of these games.It’s well known that the niche audience are mostly adults,very loyal and with loads of cash to spend so Nintendo once again has shown they have no understanding of the market.

    • I used to be like that as a Teen. Though slowly it was a transition from violence to RPGs and the beauty of the (naked) female form.

    • Kiryu

      Same here,we all grow up.

  • j0eeyy_p

    I couldn’t agree more about this. I remember NoA’s promotional videos of TMS#FE had an American English voice on it, the kind that you see in family programmes, which suggested to me they were trying to appeal this game to children, the very children whom will pass on niches games like this in favour of more mainstream games. That also proves they know little about their market for this game. Nintendo should never have localised thi game in all honesty, Atlus should have handled it with no control by Nintendo in any form. (though I’m also partially bitter as this is probably what took the reosurces for a potential Utawarerumono: Itsuwari no Kamen localisation).

    Though no mention of the GBAtemp fan restoration patch though that fixes all of the censorship? That, as well as it being possible to pirate an iso of the game, are other factors that I feel should have been considered in this opinion piece as I feel many niche gamers whom would have bought the game full price instead decided to download it illegally instead.

    Patch:
    https://gbatemp.net/threads/tokyo-mirage-sessions-fe-restoration.429651/

  • Razorfall

    I’m curious about their localization process because it looks like they just localize for Europe and Australia since can be a little more strict and they just shovel that out to the rest of the world.

    That being said the alterations make no sense.

    • “That being said the alterations make no sense.”

      Yes it does. Gotta stop dat misogyny, sexism and stick it to the patriarchy!

    • Firefox

      This game was very far from pushing any boundaries. If stuff like senran kagura can be sold in Europe I don’t see why this couldn’t.

  • The amount of censorship in this game is absolutely fucking shocking.

    To think that they put so much effort into censoring the game is just
    disgusting and a complete insult to the original game and it’s artist.

    It’s indefensible.

  • Bryan

    General consumer that don’t research about games that would buy this game already + consumers that love censorship that want to support censorship buying this game + consumers that don’t give a crap + consumers that think the gaming industry will fail if they don’t buy this one copy of censored entertainment meant for a niche audience = the people who ended up buying this game.

    If they didn’t censor this game they would also get the actual niche audience this game is targeted to, the ones that love Japans culture. They would also at least gain the people who love rpg but also hate censorship of any kind.

    I’m pretty confident that the amount of people that salivate and love censorship so much they would pay hard earned money for censorship are far less than ones that have it and won’t support a game that is censored. So it’s pretty obvious they lost sales instead of gained sales from censorship. All they needed to do was market the game like they have done, and not censor the game and they would have sold more than they have so far.

    • Well said indeed. But I’m sure the censorship-apologist Nintenfags here will come up with more bullshit excuses.

    • PanurgeJr

      Excellent use of homophobia to demonstrate just how seriously people should take you.

    • Triggered?

      If anything the long-winded crap and biased censorship apologia from the SJWs and Nintendo fanboys certainly shows that people should not take them seriously at all.

    • PanurgeJr

      That is exactly the sort of GamerGate delusion I was expecting. The most ironic thing about your completely stereotypical response is that by invoking the term “SJW” as an insult you are arguing that justice is to be opposed. Of course you’re too fucking stupid to realize it, like all GamerGaters.

      I do hope you appreciate, however, that I am not censoring my thoughts about you, who I’m sure claims to oppose censorship in all forms. But I expect you’ll respond like a bitch.

    • “SJW” as an insult you are arguing that justice is to be opposed.

      As their actions show, the Social Justice Warrior’s definition of “justice” is bullying, intimidating, harassing, doxing and trying to ruin the life of anyone they personally dislike.

      That’s not justice. It’s downright bullying and authoritarianism.

      Maybe you should look up on what happened to the British scientist/doctor Matt Taylor for wearing a shirt that SJWs/feminists disliked.

      Or the Tim Hunt situation? Or Protein World?

      But of course, Moderates or SJWs like you are too stupid to realize it. Unless of course you’re intellectually dishonest, which I have a feeling you are.

      Oh by the way, even though I have it in my profile, I don’t really associate or consider myself GamerGate any more, due to the shit-show it’s turned into.

      “I do hope you appreciate, however, that I am not censoring my thoughts
      about you”

      Indeed I do appreciate that you give your honest opinion about me. You go ahead and let it all out, I always like to see people being able to say what they want without censure. I guess you got too triggered by a few words I used right?

      Who I’m sure claims to oppose censorship in all forms. But I expect you’ll respond like a bitch.”

      Ironic of you accusing someone of being a bitch when you’re the one who got butthurt and bitchy over some words/comments I made.

    • PanurgeJr

      What is this “triggered” concept you keep mentioning? It sounds like one of those meaningless buzzwords that make hate-filled assholes think they are putting forth thoughtful, rational argument. As for irony, I was intentionally acting like a bitch. Sometimes you just need to tell fuckoffs to fuck off, even when they haven’t personally done anything to you apart from making the world a worse place by their presence.

      I feel much better now. If my day tomorrow is better than today was I should be able to be content to let this go. Of course I’ll be voting Clinton in November your pro-fascist Trump vote. Have a nice day.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      I don’t think this was really a “general consumer” game. I also have never heard anyone say they wanted to buy this game, or any game, because it was censored. I think the people who actually bought this game were primarily niche gamers who just wanted to play it, changed costumes or not.

      As for lost sales, it’s likely not that many. Really, how many copies do you think this game would have sold, even unchanged?

    • Bryan

      It would have sold more without censorship than as you said, no one really buys it due to the censorship. And as any company your main goal is to maximize profit. So they did the opposite. Either they are banking off the hours put in to “localize” the game, or they are incompetent and don’t know their fan base for games like these.

    • TrueWiiMaster

      That’s why I think the changes are so confusing. While I question how many sales were lost, I do think they were lost. Nintendo’s goal should have been to sell as many copies as possible with the least investment. Instead, they spent money to reduce sales. Either someone in charge had no idea what they were doing, or Nintendo was worried about potential backlash against their name and reputation.

  • epy

    Isn’t it localization companies trying to inflate the localization costs they charge by making unnecessary changes in the name of “cultural sensitivities”?

    Article also didn’t mention how they removed hip bones which is one of the most hilariously sad changes.

  • Mike Campbell

    hey remember when people care about gameplay and story and the changes that were made didn’t matter than much to them, I miss that and if games like Final Fantasy 6 and Earthbound today, people would of bitch about the “censorship” more than how great the game is

    • Go back to NeoGAF.

    • Mike Campbell

      I don’t have an account their and why do you hate me for having a different opinion than yours

    • But people of today do care about gameplay and story. They also care about getting the full experience as well.

      When something, no matter if it’s story, gameplay or graphics is censored, is censored the full experience is immediately gone.

      And if the stuff being censored is so “trivial” as you SJWs / feminists like to claim, then why do they keep whining and complaining of the original material in the first place? As they say themselves, surely it’s “trivial” right???

    • Mike Campbell

      I understand about not getting the dlc but you still got the same game and it’s still good, and why care about what feminist think, not every feminist is an SJW or Jessica Valinti and yet MRA get a free pass?

    • I take notice of what feminists think because they are ones influencing and ruining entertainment media with gender politics through bullying, intimidation and fear-mongering. You know like what your queen Anita Sarkeesian does with her mob of feminist fuckwits.

      And MRAs do not get a free pass, they are ostracised and demonized by the mainstream media, news media and society 24/7.

      Hope that helps

    • Mike Campbell

      Ok but what about feminist like Liana k, to me I think she better than Anita sarkeesian and what about some gamers that harass Allison Rapp and defend Scarlet Johason being Motoko Kusanagi in the GITS movie but complain about Michael b Jordan being the human torch in fan4stic

    • Steve Baltimore

      You didn’t get the same game though, you got NOA’s version of TMS which was altered from the original drastically in some cases. If you say these changes do not matter, then art in gaming in general doesn’t matter since it wouldn’t matter if it set a tone for the story and gameplay or not.

    • Kiryu

      Holy shit this guy is like the plague,he’s everywhere.

    • Cats736

      You want people to stop bitching about censorship in video games? Then stop censoring video games.

  • Sonicx9

    About the sexual content being censored in the game, has to do with multiple factors.

    1. The ESRB can sometimes be very picky when it comes to skimpy outfits in games sometimes, as one of the best examples of this is the later Dead or Alive games starting with the first Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball to the present moment excluding Dimensions are all rated M for Mature despite the games not being that hard M in raw content.
    2. The PEGI rating system has a funny history with underage sexual content being taboo sometimes such as this thing being censored only in the PAL versions vs the US versions despite Europe being more liberal on sexual content: https://youtu.be/UxlcWmUhjIs?t=2m29s and http://www.nintendolife.com/forums/3ds/dead_or_alive_dimensions_banned_in_sweden_norway_and_denmark
    3. Also Australia is no stranger at being strict on underage sexual content with certain games: http://nichegamer.com/2016/07/27/eb-games-australia-pulls-galgun/ and https://twitter.com/CensoredGaming_/status/745464851347079170
    4. And one thing worth mentioning is the Middle East versions of Nintendo Games/System releases in Saudi Arabia and UAE are all NTSC ESRB builds which Tokyo Mirage Sessions is available in BTW: https://www.facebook.com/NintendoMiddleEast!: https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e35/12750021_1034554019942836_1036526746_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTE4OTY1NDI4Njg0MTE1NjcxMA%3D%3D.2.l even though the PlayStation/Xbox systems in that region are PAL PEGI rated versions with some games getting released their may surprise you despite the conservative nature of Saudi Arabia: https://store.playstation.com/#!/ar-sa/%d8%a3%d9%84%d8%b9%d8%a7%d8%a8/dead-or-alive-5-last-round/cid=EP4108-CUSA01778_00-DOA5LR0000000000 and https://store.playstation.com/#!/ar-sa/%d8%a3%d9%84%d8%b9%d8%a7%d8%a8/gal*gun-double-peace/cid=EP4293-CUSA04606_00-GALGUNWAPP000000 and https://store.playstation.com/#!/ar-sa/%d8%a3%d9%84%d8%b9%d8%a7%d8%a8/senran-kagura-estival-versus/cid=EP4492-CUSA03464_00-0000000000000000 and https://store.playstation.com/#!/ar-sa/%d8%a3%d9%84%d8%b9%d8%a7%d8%a8/nitroplus-blasterz-heroines-infinite-duel/cid=EP4492-CUSA03953_00-NP10PS4HGBENG001 and https://store.playstation.com/#!/ar-sa/%d8%a3%d9%84%d8%b9%d8%a7%d8%a8/metal-slug-2/cid=EP0576-NPEB00681_00-NEOGEOSTATION021 and https://store.playstation.com/#!/ar-sa/%d8%a3%d9%84%d8%b9%d8%a7%d8%a8/call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare/cid=EP0002-NPEB00740_00-CALLOFDUTYFULLDL, can you guess what these games I linked you above have that goes against Saudi Arabia as a country, have a guess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E4ROvy6Btw?, with retail Saudi Arabia versions using their own age rating system starting in mid 2015: http://im.ziffdavisinternational.com/ign_mear/screenshot/default/ksa-ps4-uncharted4-u4ate-splus-2d_ggcc.png and http://nichegamer.com/2015/06/01/saudi-arabia-enacts-new-rating-system-will-also-seek-ban-on-certain-games/.
    5. The censorship could be a one for all region parity censorship similar to what Konami Europe did to Contra in the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5_kexQzkA or Sony Europe: https://youtu.be/vUVjAJiyXIk?t=3m47s, or even Japanese games such as Persona 2 Innocent Sin PSP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGE42FQc71s and Fate/Extella PS Vita/PS4: https://twitter.com/CensoredGaming_/status/740270044798693376. It kind of reminds you of what Nintendo did with Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U of console parity of having the roster the same/consistent by removing the Ice Climbers/having less Pikmin on screen for Olimar: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Olimar_(SSB4) ,etc. Because of the 3DS versions hardware limitations handicapping the Wii U version! Kind of goes hand and hand does it not?
    6. It could be that Nintendo censored the game outside of Japan in fear of a harsher age ratings in certain countries, or damaging their family friendly brand, or to be allowed in certain countries without any bans, or to not offend people such as SJW’s is my guess?

    But on the flip side there are oddities that do not add up well with the censorship with Nintendo and games that show just as much skin if not more, along with times of inconsistently with the censorship outside of Japan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsjWqCHPZ0w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-rIdCSbtP4&feature=youtu.be&t=3m30s

    On the topic of Gravure modelling being uncensored with a T rating, Xseed being famous for being Anti-Censorship, did release Nitroplus Blasterz: Heroines Infinite Duel on PS4 and PS3 with a T rating 100% uncut, complete with gravure modeling content being left alone for one of the characters in the game: https://youtu.be/wjiBsGc9VQ8?t=1m12s, which I will give more info below.

    And one thing worth mentioning about Gravure modelling it is not as foreign as one may think. Because one Japanese media brand Super Sonico: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Sonico is one of the most well know representation of gravure modeling in pop culture outside of Japan. In which she is in Nitroplus Blasterz: Heroines Infinite Duel as a playable character seen above

    And if you want more info on what gravure modeling is here are some articles from online: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravure_idol and http://tokyogirlsupdate.com/gravure-idols-part1-20151063255.html it is basically the Japanese Sports Illustrated Swimsuit for the country. And you can technically import official gravure modeling Blu-ray/Calanders/Books, etc from CDjapan: http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/products?term.cat_id=UB-06-01&term.media_format=bluray&page=1, eBay, and Amazon, etc. (note: Blu-Rays from Japan are Region A and work on North America Blu-Ray players without region problems.: http://www.world-import.com/world_region_code_map.htm)

    Did you know that despite the bad word of mouth of Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Censorship, the non-Japanese versions did sell better then the Japanese versions according to vgchartz.com/NPD sales data here are sources online:

    http://www.vgchartz.com/game/85905/shin-megami-tensei-x-fire-emblem/ 0.12 M outside of Japan vs 0.06m in Japan.

    Along with the US version selling 50K in the first month/week of release: http://personacentral.com/tokyo-mirage-sessions-fe-us-sales/

    But the question is what helped the sales, was it the positive Metacritic review scores from critics despite getting lower from user reviews/most reviews not complaining about the censorship except for 1 review online.: http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii-u/tokyo-mirage-sessions-fe and http://www.vgchartz.com/article/265170/tokyo-mirage-sessions-fe-wii-u/, which may not be true as only 3% of people pay attention to reviews according to the ESA.:http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/04/14/report-professional-game-reviews-almost-totally-irrelevant-to-buyers/ Could it be because of the fan made uncensored patch, even though it came out on the 26th of June and not the 25th when VGchartz.com lists the first week sales data, and even when the sales updated after the uncensored patch, the sales ended up decreasing then increasing. Could it be because the North America Wii U install base is larger then Japan: http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/ and mind you it is a JRPG game for that audience in mind in that country complete with a hardware bundle:http://nintendoeverything.com/final-japanese-genei-ibun-roku-fe-boxart/, and it still sold better in western countries compared to Japan of all places! Similar to Xenoblade Chronicles X: https://www.nin-nin-game.com/en/wii-u-systems-accessories/14277-wii-u-black-premium-xenoblade-chronicles-x-limited-bundle-set-brand-new-.html in Japan vs the west except with not as bad censorship as the later game being discussed: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/71409/xenoblade-chronicles-x/. Or could it be because the censorship controversy in the end helped the sales in the west similar to what happened to Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 on PS4/PS Vita becoming a popular Play-Asia English Asia version import item, because of the controversy surrounding the said game not coming to non Japan/Asia markets because of content reasons, along with Hatred on Steam, and the infamous The Interview movie from 2014?

    Note that vgchartz.com sales may not be 100% accurate, but it is interesting to point out that bad word of mouth on the censorship had zero affect on sales in non-Japanese markets, and the world will never know why?

  • Nicholas Perry

    But you forgot the argument where you think of the children and how their minds will be warped by sexually suggestive content of completely non real, highly stylized artwork!

    On the one hand though, it sucks because you want to play the game and might buy it regardless. But you are not at all ok with the stupid and pointless changes. Sends mixed messages.

    • j0eeyy_p

      Chris reviewed the game for this very site, it’s in the featured bar.

  • rergerger

    What’s less offensive than an 18 year old girl in the kind of swimsuit any 16 year old girl would wear to the beach?
    Dressing her like a hoodrat, of course.
    Nintendo logic.